Talk:IFAD synthesis project: Phase One Report

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In an email, Nancy White comments:

" From the other side, KM4Dev is a volunteer organization that owns servers and considerable intellectual property ranging from discussion summaries to the KM4Dev brand itself. "

I don't think we own any servers. We use a hosting service like anyone else...

Interesting that you consider us "owning" intellectual property. I'd position is as facilitating the share of....

John Smith response:

How about this, instead?

"From the other side, KM4Dev is a volunteer organization that secures servers and has collected considerable "intellectual property" ranging from discussion summaries to the KM4Dev brand itself. "

I'm not sure everyone understands what "secure servers" means. I don't. I think the issue is we have to pay for web hosting which has a financial aspect. ?? NW

Chat transcript - Hangout # 1

Jaap Pels IRC Helping it to become more sustainable

John Smith Lots of us here for short periods. :)

John Smith Impressions?

Nancy White So what are the intended decisions, by whom and by when? What does the core group intend? Why is growth the assumed trajectory?

pete cranston NOt growth for me, but sustainability, in the sense of maintaining energy and connectedness, and

pete cranston (and yes, I knew of your offer, Nancy!) And core group hopes to be guided, informed, to suggest future actions/processes with the whole KM4Dev network.

Sophie Alvarez not cussing :)

Nancy White stepping away for a sec. Client needs somethign

pete cranston (he's beautiful, but why is Jaap filling my screen?)

Jaap Pels IRC Clik on another participant

Nancy White click on another person and Jaap moves

pete cranston tks, think I'll go back to Jaap :-)

Nancy White I already made a lot of comments too

Ewen Le Borgne Me too...

John Smith Growth early theme.

Nancy White Part of me wonders when this stuff is useful, and when it holds less relevance for the wider membership. And how to work with that tension. But no facts behind that statement, just wonderign. I wonder about other people in the hangout who have not said anything. ;-)

Jaap Pels IRC I am muted again ....

John Smith growth into what?

Nancy White Sophie, what do you mean "it reflects what we want to reflect" and who is we?

John Smith What about previous growth?

Jaap Pels IRC I think we need to start an organisation to process money flows. Could be next to the KM4Dev community / movement / service

John Smith as an example for other CoPs? Get funds for "how wonderful"?

Jaap Pels IRC YES Growth to me means spreading to word in the 'South'

pete cranston what is it we want to do with our growth, what we have become - great question

Sophie Alvarez so in a way- we are wonderful at being inclusive

Nancy White I now wonder about our assumptions about the South, because my intuition is that there is LARGE membership from the south, but it is a quiet membership.

Sophie Alvarez yes, interesting. how to find out what people want? especially the quiet ones?

Nancy White Or maybe they are getting what they want? I have a little story about that.

Jasmin Suministrado and what about growth or evolution of activities -- in other words, quality vs. quantity?

pete cranston certainly growoing, and quiet - which is a big question for me - and the issue of leadership/coordination/centres of energy, which has emerged as one of my main intersts thorugh this process

Jaap Pels IRC I would love a budget to operate in the 'South'(and East) just to be atravelling KM salesman

Jasmin Suministrado will join you on that one Jaap!

Nancy White (and that distinction which I contest at one level.... as I think there are significant differences between "communitY' and "network" with respect to identity, relationship, boundaries, participation, etc

Sophie Alvarez can i carry your suitcase, Jaap?

pete cranston (and I'll be your agent)

Jaap Pels IRC I travel light :-)

Nancy White haha

pete cranston and agree Nancy - I think network with a set of overlapping communities within it

Sophie Alvarez Nancy- can you elaborate?

Nancy White Is that suggestion, or just being funny? Pouring money. ha!

Sophie Alvarez not the jajaj, the community vs net

Jaap Pels IRC Good observtion John I am serious

John Smith community, network AND organization. nodes of community within the network.

Sophie Alvarez community- sense of identity, so big= network

Jasmin Suministrado agree with the community or sub-group within a network

Sophie Alvarez hmmmm- mysterious :)

John Smith Nancy at CTA Meeting working with Pete, Lucy, etc. Nacy figuring out who the speakers are.

Sophie Alvarez that was NOT me

Jaap Pels IRC Thst right N. People recognize me from the 'List'....

John Smith sense of relationship?

Nancy White Look at Rinko's thanks on the list this week regarding write shop. I think the evidence is lurking just below the surface

Sophie Alvarez could be- or could just be nancy's broad reaching fame (not joking)

Nancy White Sophie, yes, I have visibility because of my choices of how to participate. But I think I stand as a proxy for the "community" and not just for me. And I don't think that experience requires a terribly large set of administration.

Jaap Pels IRC No

Nancy White (Yeah, I am not interested in producing an organization. You all know that. I am more interested in members serving their set of relationships). Nice robe behind you, Pete

Jaap Pels IRC Funders (orgs) should finance a secretariate for KM4Dev making money flow

Pete: true, but for F2F we need finance

Nancy White I fundamentally disagree, Jaap. Why build yet another secretariate. Can't we be responsible for ourselves? Aren't we worth a little bit of time we each contribute? ('m trusting)

John Smith email exchanges as evidence of ongoing conversation ... evolution of leadership.

Nancy White Jaap, we self financed F2F in Seattle. But why do we prioritize F2F when we have grown so large and global which suggests that F2F is not a sustainable model for a group this large?

John Smith elements of sustainability?

Nancy White Or do we? There are plenty of bounded spaces in thsi world

Jaap Pels IRC We need F2F for the South!

Nancy White No bounding doesn't mean it will wither. Jaap, there are tons of KM F2F in the south. Why do they need us? Who is "we" in this case?

pete cranston agree, so what does a network like K4dev need to remain vibrant?

Nancy White Stan, Barb, ideas? Thoughts?

Jaap Pels IRC KM4DEv reps / hats /

Nancy White Reps? What do yuo mean Jaap?

pete cranston We've in the past done it through regular f2f, some funding, ....?

Barb McDonald I'm just here to listen...

John Smith Jasmin question re growth. Quality as membership changed.

Jaap Pels IRC Well, look at WEDC / IRC and other; by going in country you make it easy for people (KM4Dev members) to join in F2F

John Smith are newcomers or people in the south served?

Jaap Pels IRC People in the South have inboxes with 100ends unread email .... You will need to establish a F2F relation first. @Nancy (Jaap, there are tons of KM F2F in the south. Why do they need us?). Yes, we should be there!

Nancy White haunts? ;-) Jaap, I think the WE is THEM, not US (as in old timers, core/former core). When we drive, we drive in our direction, perhaps not theirs.

Jaap Pels IRC John: yes Good

Jasmin Suministrado i think the leadership and driver seat is another important aspect to assess

Nancy White The burden of assessment --> are we clear about the value it adds. Haha. Funny, Stan (I'm laughing. )

Jasmin Suministrado core group evolution and what stages will and should it go into next

Nancy White isn't this mostly about accountability to funder? Honestly? Would the group had done it if not based on that expectation?

Jaap Pels IRC Our added value (?) should be to reach out to the next generations and empower them to pick up pieces themselvees

pete cranston Stan, each study addressed a perceived problem but this synthesis became necessary since each of the pieces operated independently

Nancy White Jaap, if the "OUR" isn't representative of "the next generation" then aren't we simply perpetuating our own biases? What emerges FROM others, not from US? (Sort of interested in this "problem" approach vs a possible "appreciative approach.")

pete cranston Nancy, well, we (I?) had the same concerns before we got IFAD funding and we put that in the bid documents (you'll remember!). Clearly, the nature of the grant operation has had an impact, but we're addressing the issues we started with

Sophie Alvarez Another issue with "being active" - some are active in wiki, some mailing list, etc.

Nancy White No she ddint' say that John. We didn't even get that far with our linguistic divide. It was an emotional moment, but I can't use it in a data point the way you just suggested.

John Smith outsider contributions?

Nancy White That was not the objective as far as I understand.

pete cranston Yes, SNA and baseline assessment were exactly that

Nancy White And Pete, how would the core group have addressed those concerns w/o IFAD funding? Would they have paid attention the say way? Differently? I think this is a really interesting question when you start looking forward and deciding on business models, etc. It tells us what we think is (or isn't) important.

pete cranston the Tech stewarding peiece was addressing a specific issue, and trying to look forward

Nancy White But the lack of engagement by members in those three activities (CTA, SNA, baseline assessment) should be of interest to us.

Ewen Le Borgne So what matters – how to balance:

- Community or network? - Paid (and more organisation-like) or voluntary? - Domain or community focus (how to balance these)? - Expansion in different areas / concentration? - Face to face or virtual?

But perhaps we could just try to ‘respond to challenges/questions’ from the community rather than think about issues that seem important to some of us but perhaps are not to others.

John Smith Ewen: challenges coming up..

Nancy White Are we paying attention to what matters more largely to the network? Or can we even know that?

pete cranston Nancy - though quite a few did participate in baseline survey, within normal variations?

John Smith responding TO the community is a strategy. People in the community will provide feedback.

Nancy White Look who shows up here. Same old folks (with a few welcomed visitors brought in by John'

Jaap Pels IRC @Ewen

Nancy White s sharing of this in CPSquare

John Smith People who don't know how to engage...

Jaap Pels IRC Indeed, we have to contact them! Not bringing KM but discourse on KM

Nancy White Linking our local networks to KM4Dev is one of my strategies. And it is a slow process Bye E

Jasmin Suministrado bye!!!

Nancy White (nodding in agreement w/ E)

John Smith Sophie: Ewen's comments resonate in LA. Is there a need for SIWA? WE think there's a need? but do people in LA feel that? If the need were there, SIWA would not have vanished.

Jaap Pels IRC Unknow SIWI will not work

pete cranston isn;t there something about stewardship, responsibility? If we have experience with how networks go through life-cycles, isnt' there something we need to do to try and sustain it?

Jaap Pels IRC Spreading the KM4Dev word needs financing ... For that I would love a parallel KM4Dev.INK but separating money flows and KM4Dev comms wor

Sophie Alvarez i am having trouble hearing- my connection is breaking up...

Nancy White Sorry I didn't follow that last bit, John. Could be my fractured attention

pete cranston again please John!

pete cranston (also mine!)

Nancy White (simpler?)

Nancy White IS the problem this silence? Or is the opportunity to nuture where energy emerges?

Sophie Alvarez back

Nancy White nurture. Can't spell

pete cranston like the latter formulation, Nancy

Nancy White N/S --> is it time to ditch this concept and instead look for nodes?

Sophie Alvarez N/S ?

Jaap Pels IRC KM4Dev should make fact-finding house calls. To individuals / orgs / networks in the South

pete cranston nodes is good - since a lot of 'Northern' people are in the 'South' and active in 'Southern' circles and ocmmunities

Jaap Pels IRC Lets finance that

pete cranston it's a quesiton of tuype of query, interest, theme

Jaap Pels IRC Agree nodes

Jasmin Suministrado i think the move to nodes is natural and maybe energy there should be harnessed

Nancy White @Sophie - North/South

John Smith Big question: how cultivate the energy that's there?

Nancy White Jaap, can we say that "finance" doesn't always have to mean money? I worry about the money trap. Again and again.

John Smith What's the minimum space / intervention is enough?

Sophie Alvarez ohhhh i am so wary of this "harnessing of energy nodes"

Nancy White 1. Relationship (community). 2. Domain (focused conversations at some times, emergent at others)

Barb McDonald Agree with Nancy... money complicates power structures

John Smith different types of energy: money, passion, qeustions...

Nancy White Dang, the admin stuff is EASY! That's why paired admin

Jasmin Suministrado but some money is essential

Jaap Pels IRC Access, language and power are KM / learning issues. The first two KM4Dev addresses a bit. Language is allready difficult.

Jasmin Suministrado at least for some top level coordination work

Nancy White I guess I need to realize that it is easy for me and I should not assume that is true for others.

Barb McDonald coalesce into different groups with different activity...

Jaap Pels IRC @Pete; we need to agree on the vacabulary AWAY from 'normal' CoPs and things like 'what is in it for me'...

Jasmin Suministrado our experience this year with the ifad grant shows how difficult it is if there's nobody really tasked and responsible to coordinate

pete cranston agree Barb, say more Jaap?

Jaap Pels IRC Node, eneregy,

pete cranston Agree 150% Jasmine

Jaap Pels IRC @Jasmin. Yes, but we have to gauge it through a parallel org

Nancy White Jaap, what does that mean?

Barb McDonald was just typing what you said, Pete, because it resonated

Nancy White I have to run. The report deadline is now making me crazy.


Jasmin Suministrado so what to do next? what options do we have? how do we decide?

Nancy White Decide what?

John Smith implications of the report..

Jaap Pels IRC @Nancy / Jasmin: fin flows need outputs / results / admin. That should not be under KM4Dev but in a parrallel ink.

John Smith understand the community.

Nancy White Jaap, that is an interesting option.

John Smith Jasmin observing the shifting energy in the core group

Nancy White I think it is time to reconstitute the core group. (reason I left -- I feel that my presence was a source of stagnation)

John Smith is there a "right role" for a core gorup in a community?

Jasmin Suministrado i also have to leave in a while

pete cranston Me too!

Jaap Pels IRC OK than I will decide!

pete cranston


Jaap Pels IRC If you all leave

pete cranston Another one of these tomorrow, at a friendlier time for the Americas!

John Smith ongoing questions...

Jasmin Suministrado @jaap: maybe we can explore this parallel thing

Jaap Pels IRC @John: agree

Jasmin Suministrado thank you!!!! :)

Nancy White thanks all and John and visitors

Jaap Pels IRC C U t/row

Barb McDonald Thanks, john

Jasmin Suministrado bye!!!!

Jaap Pels IRC @Nancy: we need to do a bilatteral on an ink Bye all

Lightly edited Chat transcript - Hangout # 2

John Smith 12:10PM The blinking report!  :)

John Smith 12:16PM We're all looking at page 4 in Google Docs.

John Smith 12:16PM JOel is on an iPad

John Smith 12:20PM so many tech choices. dgroups: 1827 registered people. Peter Bury asks: meta level comment. where is the purpose of the report. what is it going to be used for? abandoning the screen-share strategy. All looking at the Google Doc: "about this document" in the summary. in the Table of contents, rather.

Peter J. w Bury 12:28PM Second feedback: the CTlab component does not mention the recommendation made by the CTlab group to KM4Dev core group about our own Technology Stewardship and the ToR for such a group and for a consultant launching the same TSG

John Smith 12:29PM exploration and tech diversity create complexity. Why did nothing happen as a result of CTlab? Peter: idea of synthesis came up. Mark Hammersly has not recently responded. Did Mark get any feedback from other Core Group members? Mark, Charles D, Peter Bury worked after the "project" was over.

Pete C: existential question is "What is KM4Dev?" CTLab conversations were rich, but the recommendation that says, "KM4Dev should employ a consultant to....x, y, z" leaves things hanging in a funny way. tech stewardship as content for a "class" vs. tech stewardship as a practice / element for the community itself. Mark was asked to launch the tech stewardship group.

John Smith 12:37PM Joel was participating in CTlab. it was small, but participants were very at ease with tech. There were no tech newbies there. It happened during the summer, so low activity.

Joel: questions Ning group -- but prefer the Dgroup. Why still have both? Have been able to use the Wiki for article on evolution of KM that he did for SAGE.

Peter J. w Bury 12:38PM Don't be mistaken: the technology stewardship for or within KM4Dev was never addressed in CTlab!!! Summer took over, the KM4Dev specific part was phase 2 and lost out

John Smith 12:38PM Has not received many comments.

pete cranston 12:38PM what do you think is going on in SAGE, Joel?

Peter J. w Bury 12:39PM Knowledge labs??? not aware about it

John Smith 12:39PM Having another channel creates opportunities AND complexity. Offer teaching, classes, or "lessons"?

Peter J. w Bury 12:40PM btw the recommendations to KM4Dev to take up tech stewardship is now linked to here

John Smith 12:40PM in Cali f2f there were sessions teaching people how to use Twitter or Facebook. That was useful. What's happening in SAGE?

Peter J. w Bury 12:41PM SAGE Journal

John Smith 12:41PM able to publish the french version of the KM4DEv journal. Marroco group developing f2f.

Peter J. w Bury 12:42PM SAGE Burkina seems active

John Smith 12:42PM generally, more f2f than online.

Peter J. w Bury 12:42PM proprioception?? google? F2F is wonderful and expensive! It's like me keeping saying that KM4Dev core group needs to meet with a quorum at least once a year (even if that sounds top heavy)

John Smith 12:43PM wonderful that so much is happening -- even if we don't know!

Peter J. w Bury 12:45PM Metalevel: how much do we NEED to know and who is the we here? how decentralized can KM4Dev be and still be considered 'one community' or maybe better 'movement'?

John Smith 12:45PM ask people why being published in KM4Dev journal in Spanish vs the hangout aspect of "being together" Joel: funding issue. funding has moved out of latin america... Where are the America folks (who were expected to come to this Hangout)? This time was picked on their behalf.

Peter J. w Bury 12:48PM Pete you mean being on KM4Dev provides status and is put into CVs?

John Smith 12:48PM people enjoy riding on the KM4DEv coach. not interested in the engine, much less putting gas in.

Peter J. w Bury 12:48PM that is what I call KM4Dev is (also) a service

John Smith 12:48PM Escort group... is on the edge. They were singing songs in the back seat!  :)

Peter J. w Bury 12:49PM theory: the crisis makes people too anxious to be active on KM4Dev like before the same crisis, say before 2010 (taking into the time lag as the banking crisis started in 2008)

John Smith 12:49PM who feels a responsibility for the sustenance of the community. SNA study suggests that SAGE is led by 3 people. escorts kind of do it all.

Peter J. w Bury 12:50PM Mamadou X organizes regular SAGE Burkina f2f meetings in Ouaga, documented outside KM4Dev channels. Should we be less ambitious?

pete cranston 12:51PM and since Ewen got to Addis, there are regular KM4Dev meetings, but it took Ewen!

Peter J. w Bury 12:51PM more people in the driver seat in KM4Dev? the core group is huge! We should be tougher on the drivers, kick sleeping drivers out?

pete cranston 12:52PM Is KM4Dev a chariot?

Peter J. w Bury 12:52PM chariot of fire? sounds biblical. Answer: people need to stop asking for permission!

John Smith 12:53PM How enable people to DO stuff without asking for permission. horses makes it more complex.  :-)

Peter J. w Bury 12:53PM so lets go back: are there problems? whose problems are they?

John Smith 12:54PM surfacing what's actually going on in the drive train. Nancy's story about a meeting in Kagali.

Peter J. w Bury 12:54PM the famous lurkers that learn so much, but the drivers will never know!

John Smith 12:54PM people in the front who are obsessed about the turns ahead may not know about the singing in the back of the bus.

Peter J. w Bury 12:55PM KM4Dev facilitators should refer to themselves as animators (pronounce the french way)

John Smith 12:55PM Pete c: exercise of pruning the list.

Peter J. w Bury 12:56PM pruning the core group

pete cranston 12:56PM why?

Peter J. w Bury 12:56PM is access to finance an upcoming issue? or not at all?

pete cranston 12:56PM maybe split it into different functions? yes, Peter, in the next piece of work

Peter J. w Bury 12:57PM Jaap proposes: (commercial bizz sourcing funding) guided by animating the community and providing service

John Smith 12:57PM how can both sides communicate with each other effectively? transparency -- in the eye of the beholder? from a legitimate peripheral participation perspective. Peter bury says: hard to find stuff on the wiki... how distribute wiki thinking? adventuresome tech leaders vs folks who metabolize existing / mainline tech.

Peter J. w Bury 1:01PM core and KM4Dev products: a bit untransparent.

John Smith 1:02PM a lot of people don't even know that there IS a core group.

Peter J. w Bury 1:02PM we are volunteers (volontaires!) [there is a fabulous movie about B.B. - yes Brigitte Bardot - on]

John Smith 1:03PM curation and integration are ongoing activities. they will ALWAYS be a challenge! what KM4Dev means for me -- the arc of its impact on my life. focus on individual trajectories more than on "groups" (e.g., core group).

Peter J. w Bury 1:04PM like Forza Italia and Berlusconi? or Putin?

pete cranston 1:05PM Berlusconi has been expelled, is that what you mean by pruning the Core Group? Joel? Joel Muzard left group chat. Joel Muzard joined group chat.

John Smith 1:07PM relation between core group and the animators group. Should there be term limits for the core group? what other functions? admin moderators... tech stewardship didn't happen (why not?) relationship between core group, tech stewards and "tech guys". where's the "Just do it" spirit? will the ship strand on a shoal?