Full notes from Skype call - Wed Nov 26

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  • [16:10:06] josien kapma says: three items on agenda
  • [16:10:40] josien kapma says: 1. overview of TAG process
  • [16:10:56] josien kapma says: 2. reviewing recommendation that tag group did, discuss pros/cons
  • [16:11:03] josien kapma says: 3. how to move forward and hopefully make a decision
  • [16:16:07] Lucie Lamoureux says: http://www.km4dev.org/wiki/index.php/KM4Dev_Technology_Assessment_Group_Work_Area
  • [16:16:57] josien kapma says: 19 people in the TAG group
  • [16:17:30] josien kapma says: we asked: what are activities we need to support with tech
  • [16:18:17] josien kapma says: we sent the info to the broader list for input, then Skype call in Sept
  • [16:18:33] josien kapma says: we came up with the recommendations you see on the wiki
  • [16:19:50] josien kapma says: questions on process or results?
  • [16:23:08] vijaya.vee says: May I ask how individual blogs will be hosted? a page of links with a classified search?
  • [16:25:05] Camilo Villa says: why to host blogs, why not to act as a hub connecting blogs hosted wherever members have them?
  • [16:25:30] vijaya.vee says: right. as links i expect
  • [16:28:07] Riff Fullan says: I haven't had a chance to look at the new dgroups in terms of functionality. Does anyone know if there's new functionality expected with the first release of Dgroups 2.0?
  • [16:28:16] josien kapma says: KM4d journal is going to be taken over (80% sure) by..
  • [16:28:34] Riff Fullan says: routledge
  • [16:29:12] Riff Fullan says: Just fyi, there is some funding in the current km4dev support project for tech work, which could include programming...
  • [16:30:02] Riff Fullan says: I'd have to check, but it would be around CHF10-15k
  • [16:30:13] josien kapma says: riff, until when is current funding?
  • [16:30:26] Carl Jackson says: Is there any cost of partnering with DGroups?
  • [16:30:27] Riff Fullan says: No the CAD 10k was for finding a new host. That will be used up by the end of 2009 for hosting.
  • [16:30:33] Riff Fullan says: Current project is up to june 2009
  • [16:30:36] josien kapma says: (what is the sell-by date of these funds?)
  • [16:31:12] Riff Fullan says: Normal price is EUR3600 (2008)
  • [16:31:28] Riff Fullan says: No, I agree, I think there is mutual benefit, so...
  • [16:31:40] Riff Fullan says: km4dev contribution could be in-kind
  • [16:31:42] Carl Jackson says: If its free or low cost I think a great idea to stick with DGroups for this component
  • [16:32:04] Riff Fullan says: I agree with you, Carl.
  • [16:32:21] josien kapma says: yes. me too. they feel like the right people
  • [16:33:01] Carl Jackson says: I think it will be robust too if Damir is delivering
  • [16:33:01] Lucie Lamoureux says: also loyalty, history with dgroups, all that
  • [16:33:49] josien kapma says: i lost track of what happened after drupal guy
  • [16:34:35] Lucie Lamoureux says: matt slater is his name, he offered to develop in Drupal
  • [16:34:52] Lucie Lamoureux says: then michael roberts also offered (Ning)
  • [16:35:32] Riff Fullan says: So, this means there are two tech people who have expressed enthusiasm for being involved in developing a CMS?
  • [16:35:39] Lucie Lamoureux says: yes
  • [16:35:49] Carl Jackson says: Michael Roberts keen on Ning
  • [16:35:52] Riff Fullan says: either ning or drupal, if we follow the TAG recommendation.
  • [16:36:12] josien kapma says: there are discussion between marc steinlin (leading SA workshop)
  • [16:36:31] Carl Jackson says: Ning plus DGroups for the 2009 workshop
  • [16:36:34] josien kapma says: he and michael are talking of using ning coupled to a mailing list for the event
  • [16:37:02] josien kapma says: this could be a pilot (i support the idea!)
  • [16:37:17] Riff Fullan says: I have seen Drupal in action a bit, haven't seen Ning, but I'm wondering if it would be possible for core group people to get a taste of each? Maybe looking at existing community/CMS's. Development ones?
  • [16:37:20] FAO-travel says: can we change it if it doesn't work
  • [16:37:25] josien kapma says: ning is cool
  • [16:37:31] Bury@IRC says: ning looks cool
  • [16:37:43] Denise Senmartin says: why is ning cool?
  • [16:37:43] FAO-travel says: yes the best thing would be to see both in use
  • [16:37:45] josien kapma says: drupal i find hard but nice once properly set up
  • [16:37:52] Carl Jackson says: I have seen Ning used by Business Fights Poverty and you couldn't tell it was a proprietory system
  • [16:37:52] Camilo Villa says: have you explored other ning type platforms?
  • [16:37:59] josien kapma says: lets try it
  • [16:38:00] Camilo Villa says: http://www.collectivex.com
  • [16:38:04] josien kapma says: it is hard to explain
  • [16:38:05] Bury@IRC says: i like dgroups but... wouldn't it be possible to have all of our stuff together in one place: so mailing on ning ?
  • [16:38:10] josien kapma says: it has a lot, does a lot
  • [16:38:14] Bury@IRC says: is that possible? just to know the options
  • [16:38:18] Carl Jackson says: I think the advantage of Ning is that the technical maintenance risks are low as it is a service
  • [16:38:20] josien kapma says: i find it extremely powerful
  • [16:38:39] josien kapma says: yes, carl. and some nings are big
  • [16:38:43] FAO-travel says: Is collectivex.com on Ning???
  • [16:38:57] Riff Fullan says: I would feel better with an example or two, plus a list of features (maybe if could be found on the Ning/Drupal sites?).
  • [16:39:16] Camilo Villa says: kind of ning, other platform
  • [16:39:34] FAO-travel says: what is it called then?
  • [16:39:39] Carl Jackson says: Ning example: http://businessfightspoverty.ning.com/
  • [16:39:44] Riff Fullan says: so it has ning-ish tendencies? ;)
  • [16:39:51] Camilo Villa says: ha ha
  • [16:40:10] Lucie Lamoureux says: http://www.telecentre.org/ is also Ning
  • [16:40:34] Carl Jackson says: Do we think there is enough motivation in the technically minded in KM4Dev to work with Ning. If there is then would seem a safer bet.
  • [16:41:19] josien kapma says: if there isn't a lot, then it is even a safer bet
  • [16:41:39] josien kapma says: as it is dummy proof, other than drupal
  • [16:41:48] Carl Jackson says: I meant motivation for a particular application compared to another, but take your point
  • [16:42:27] FAO-travel says: Drupal is used more for publication and is supported by people who have virtual library
  • [16:42:49] josien kapma says: i like ning as it seems least headache option
  • [16:42:54] josien kapma says: they do hosting and updates and fiddling the buttons is relatively simple
  • [16:43:05] Riff Fullan says: If I understand the choices, Ning is less risky in terms of maintenance, but less customizable. Drupal is more customizable, but needs ongoing maintenance. Also, if I understand correctly, drupal has been around quite a bit longer, so I would also ask what are the future prospects for Ning to continue to exist?
  • [16:43:08] FAO-travel says: At FAO we use Typo3 but you need to be an expert to use it as CMS
  • [16:43:35] Bury@IRC says: I hope ning has a very powerful search on its own platform, there are so many ways to interact, some very similar to a mailing list: groups, discussion lists, etc.
  • 16:43:49] Riff Fullan says: But we have agreed that dgroups is good for the list functionality we need.
  • [16:43:55] Bury@IRC says: I guess Dgroups will be mainly to keep low bandwidth people on board
  • [16:44:01] Carl Jackson says: Also if DGroups does offer more features down the road then using Ning might be a lower sunk investment than Drupal if we want to switch over to Dgroup's other features in future
  • [16:44:08] FAO-travel says: Do we have an idea on what the future Dgroup will run on?
  • [16:44:12] Riff Fullan says: plus email is still where it's at
  • [16:44:20] Denise Senmartin says: I have used typeo3 also, is good but you need time for the learning curve
  • [16:44:45] Riff Fullan says: I have seen the platform. In my opinion....
  • [16:45:01] Riff Fullan says: it is at the moment quite limited in terms of document/object management
  • [16:45:14] Riff Fullan says: Also, it's not a sophisticated list management software
  • [16:45:45] Riff Fullan says: I mean the platform that the new dgroups will be built on
  • [16:47:09] Riff Fullan says: i reckon the dgroups partnership (of which Helvetas is also a member) would benefit from concentrating on making the list management part more robust.
  • [16:47:22] Lucie Lamoureux says: i was told that it was quite solid (Damir's)
  • [16:47:30] Riff Fullan says: Damir's platform will I think have to add some functionality (not much) for Dgroups 2.0
  • [16:47:38] Carl Jackson says: I like solid
  • [16:47:44] josien kapma says: lucie, was shirikisha considered?
  • [16:47:47] Lucie Lamoureux says: no one mentioned it
  • [16:47:54] Riff Fullan says: It is solid, but not sophisticated, like Lyris List Manager, I think
  • [16:48:00] Bury@IRC says: well a mailing list doesn't need that much functionality, does it?
  • [16:48:51] Riff Fullan says: I think if you want to get clever with digests, statistics, bounces, notifications, etc.,it's good to be sophisticated, but it's been a while since I've thought about all that stuff.
  • [16:48:55] Bury@IRC says: question about Ning: would it be able to hold our wiki? to avoid having stuff in too many different places
  • [16:49:03] Carl Jackson says: As a non-technical person I feel more confident I could help manage a Ning based platform than a Drupal one, just a feeling
  • [16:49:06] Lucie Lamoureux says: this was one of the advantage of the ning option, to be able to mash up stuff
  • [16:49:06] Bury@IRC says: although web2.0 allows for linking up different places isn't it? like maps, pictures, video's all on different platforms?
  • [16:49:07] josien kapma says: that is a drawback of ning i think: library/archive/filing is weak or even non-existent
  • [16:49:34] josien kapma says: ok if we can mash, that's good
  • [16:49:37] Carl Jackson says: I thought keeping mediawiki for now was an OK compromise
  • [16:49:53] Riff Fullan says: Good point, Josien! I think it is important to remember that one thing we would like to do in future is....
  • [16:50:16] Riff Fullan says: manage the content that is generated by the community in a better way. If it can be readily found through searches...
  • [16:50:31] Riff Fullan says: then it doesn't need to be managed as directly, but one way or another....
  • [16:50:35] Bury@IRC says: suggestion (but requires work): make a table with all features and requirements (of these features) we want to have (mailing, wiki, etc...) and then a number of columns indicating the options and ideally a rating how well it caters for our needs
  • [16:50:41] Riff Fullan says: it needs to be easier for people to find the content they want
  • [16:50:57] Bury@IRC says: the outcome is then Ning or what ever else and/or a combination of things (Ning + Dgroups)
  • [16:51:12] josien kapma says: riff, i agree
  • [16:51:20] Camilo Villa says: reading all these posts...what we aim is to be a kind of google for KM4D... would google foundation be a partner to approach?
  • [16:51:27] Carl Jackson says: I think Ning plus Dgroups
  • [16:51:39] Bury@IRC says: Carl: but does that cover our wiki needs?
  • [16:51:50] Riff Fullan says: Did anyone answer my question about likely future existence of Ning?
  • [16:51:54] Lucie Lamoureux says: we keep mediawiki, as we mentioned earlier
  • [16:51:55] Carl Jackson says: Sorry + mediawiki
  • [16:52:10] josien kapma says: carl. good one
  • [16:52:14] Bury@IRC says: future existence in these times is totally unknown: see General Motors
  • [16:52:24] Bury@IRC says: or Citibank?
  • [16:52:39] Riff Fullan says: Ok, then how long has Ning been around?
  • [16:52:54] josien kapma says: ning seems large enough to sustain. it is very popular and growing
  • [16:52:55] Lucie Lamoureux says: created October 2004
  • [16:52:56] Riff Fullan says: This is important to me because Ning is a service, drupal is a product
  • [16:52:58] Bury@IRC says: GM for a long time ;) Yahoo may disappear one day
  • [16:53:12] Riff Fullan says: So there's nothing to say about it?
  • [16:53:39] Bury@IRC says: but that is because web2.0 is only that old
  • 16:53:48] Camilo Villa says: I would go for DGroups and Ning kind of, not Drupal, that would imply more effort to sustain
  • [16:53:56] Bury@IRC says: maybe one criteria is open source? stuff can be easily taken over by someone else?
  • [16:54:09] Riff Fullan says: In that case, I would suggest we look into possibilities around backing up content.
  • [16:54:12] Lucie Lamoureux says: this is something we discussed
  • [16:54:15] Carl Jackson says: Do you want to summarise where you think we have got to Lucie with this item?
  • [16:54:25] Lucie Lamoureux says: not really!  :-)
  • [16:54:26] Camilo Villa says: are there other ning kind of based in OS?
  • [16:54:30] Bury@IRC says: yes backup possibility seems essential: can TAG check that?
  • [16:54:41] Lucie Lamoureux says: TAG is now defunct
  • [16:54:49] Bury@IRC says: TAG2.0
  • [16:54:59] FAO-travel says: regarding all what we want the system/ platform to do is clearly written in the TAG wiki . i think that we should look at present platform built with Ning, Drupal or other and ask users of such platforms the pro and cons.
  • [16:55:43] Bury@IRC says: then lets ask that question on KM4Dev surely some members can say something on Ning and Drupal?
  • [16:56:00] Lucie Lamoureux says: we can talk to users... but the issue here is time and also that very few people are necessarily happy about platforms, plus there aren't any perfect platforms
  • [16:56:20] josien kapma says: lets try ning plus dgroups for the SA event and see
  • [16:56:37] Carl Jackson says: Putting this out to the whole list seems to undo where TAG has got us to. I'd rather the core group got us to a decision today.
  • [16:56:59] Lucie Lamoureux says: i would too
  • [16:57:00] Camilo Villa says: I agree, Carl
  • [16:57:17] Bury@IRC says: i would too: ning and dgroups
  • [16:57:22] Camilo Villa says: me too
  • [16:57:37] Camilo Villa says: unless there is an OS ning kind of platform
  • [16:57:50] josien kapma says: shirikisha?
  • [16:57:50] Camilo Villa says: the equivalent to wordpress
  • [16:57:52] Carl Jackson says: We could put the CG decision as a strong recommendation to the community and listen to the feedback
  • [16:57:55] Riff Fullan says: I'm not against a decision, but I certainly seem less confident than others about one solution vs. the other. Is it possible to include in whatever decision a real intention to evaluate 3-6 months down the road?
  • [16:57:57] josien kapma says: but isnt ning open source as well?
  • [16:58:04] FAO-travel says: we are facing real challenges because we want an ideal beast; open Source, easy to use, takng into consideration low band width. I agree to try Ning + dgroups
  • [16:58:35] Bury@IRC says: ning /Dgroups/ mediawiki?
  • [16:58:42] Bury@IRC says: costs affordable?
  • [16:58:47] Bury@IRC says: on the medium term?
  • [16:59:21] Lucie Lamoureux says: ning is free, we would need someone to mash things up
  • [16:59:38] Bury@IRC says: or just hope that it will be possible somehow?
  • [16:59:45] Carl Jackson says: Riff, I like the idea of an evaluation of a pilot, isn't that the SA Workshop try out?
  • [16:59:58] Camilo Villa says: indeed
  • [17:00:11] Riff Fullan says: the wkshop could be a good pivot point for that.
  • [17:00:14] josien kapma says: but it means a delay of 8 months
  • [17:00:16] Lucie Lamoureux says: ok, stating again that my issue is time...
  • [17:00:24] Bury@IRC says: so the try out is between now (or very soon) and just after S Africa?
  • [17:00:25] josien kapma says: lets dive
  • [17:00:48] FAO-travel says: if we don't try something we won't know what works . SA workshop could be the place where we check if it is worth continuing
  • [17:00:51] Riff Fullan says: I agree, we should go ahead in the short term
  • [17:01:04] Riff Fullan says: probably
  • [17:01:26] Camilo Villa says: I suppose it would be always possible to approach ning people and ask for a special deal...bringing in such a large community would be an interesting buzz for them
  • [17:01:39] Lucie Lamoureux says: ok, thx Riff... so what do we have
  • [17:01:51] Lucie Lamoureux says: 1. use the SA to test, or 2. jump in
  • [17:01:55] Bury@IRC says: Camilo a special deal in what sense? as it seems to be free?
  • [17:02:19] Camilo Villa says: it's free with some restrictions and adds
  • [17:02:34] Camilo Villa says: if you pay a membership you have more control over the site
  • [17:02:39] Bury@IRC says: so we need a name and a small driving team to set up the platform?
  • [17:02:43] josien kapma says: i'ld say, jump in as in starting to mash and use SA to evaluate and steer if things
  • [17:02:46] Lucie Lamoureux says: but we can pay to remove the ads, it's not a lot
  • [17:02:49] Bury@IRC says: experiment with mashup with mediawiki
  • [17:02:55] Camilo Villa says: i agree
  • [17:02:58] FAO-travel says: We have to evaluate how much it costs in efforts, time , money to jump and see if it is easy (not too costly) to get out of the water if we don't like it
  • [17:03:01] Bury@IRC says: and eventually dgroups (not much to mash maybe)
  • [17:03:11] Camilo Villa says: and even I think we can use our URL,
  • [17:03:13] Carl Jackson says: Jump in, supporting the SA workshop and then review in May where we have got to?
  • [17:03:14] Denise Senmartin says: who does the mash up?
  • [17:03:23] Lucie Lamoureux says: good question
  • [17:03:35] Lucie Lamoureux says: do we want to ask michael roberts to do it, he had offered
  • [17:03:48] Carl Jackson says: sign michael up
  • [17:03:51] FAO-travel says: if he did, let's ask him
  • [17:03:53] josien kapma says: sounds good
  • [17:04:00] Camilo Villa says: (y)
  • [17:04:05] josien kapma says: can he do it?
  • [17:04:17] Lucie Lamoureux says: we need to ask... technically, yes he can
  • [17:04:18] Bury@IRC says: why not but maybe accompanied with two or three of us?
  • [17:04:33] josien kapma says: yes
  • [17:04:37] Lucie Lamoureux says: sure, it people are available/interested
  • [17:04:38] Bury@IRC says: is Michael km4dev? willing to join or interact with coregroup?
  • [17:04:53] Lucie Lamoureux says: he is a member, yes... was in almada
  • [17:04:58] Bury@IRC says: ah ok good
  • [17:05:16] josien kapma says: i dont mind helping michael
  • [17:05:25] Bury@IRC says: i dont mind either
  • [17:05:44] josien kapma says: it 's what i want to be doing, we need bev
  • [17:05:49] FAO-travel says: i cannot help in tech side, but agree to test and comment
  • [17:05:50] Lucie Lamoureux says: great... ok we need to wrap up.. if anyone has any objections speak now or forever hold etc.
  • [17:05:53] josien kapma says: or nancy with their experience
  • [17:06:03] Camilo Villa says: (y)
  • [17:06:12] Carl Jackson says: (y)
  • [17:06:16] Bury@IRC says: inclusive we are!
  • [17:06:17] vijaya.vee says: (y)
  • [17:06:18] Denise Senmartin says: i help with testing too
  • [17:06:20] josien kapma says: (y)
  • [17:06:27] Bury@IRC says: (y)
  • [17:06:32] Bury@IRC says: (handshake)
  • [17:06:34] FAO-travel says: and what does Nancy think about all of this?
  • [17:06:46] Lucie Lamoureux says: she was on the TAG
  • [17:07:15] Lucie Lamoureux says: she is the one who made sure we stuck to the activities and not go off in techie land
  • [17:07:21] vijaya.vee says: (clap)
  • [17:09:26] Carl Jackson says: Job done I think
  • [17:09:42] josien kapma says: tech challenged but we did it, well done lucie and thanks
  • [17:09:45] Lucie Lamoureux says: ok, perfect will write up notes and contact michael
  • [17:09:46] Bury@IRC says: is it useful to create a Dgroup-Ning-Mediawiki-mashup Dgroup?
  • [17:09:46] vijaya.vee says: Thanks folks, it was good to meet (clap) special applause lucie
  • [17:09:50] Bury@IRC says: anyone can join?
  • [17:10:00] FAO-travel says: OK so we agree : try to have NING+ Dgroups + wikimedia - try it and jump check after SA
  • [17:10:07] Bury@IRC says: group reports to core group regularly (or even to all on km4dev)?
  • [17:10:14] Lucie Lamoureux says: yes
  • [17:10:29] Lucie Lamoureux says: thanks everyone!
  • [17:10:35] Carl Jackson says: I feel confident for our future